Everyone has their quirks.  No one is normal, let’s stop pretending.  Listen to Brent and Matt discuss the importance of subcultures and the pressures of societal norms on both children and adults.  How do we empower people without enabling them to avoid challenge?  Hear two fathers of teenagers talk about the idea of asking for students consent to have them do things they don’t want to do.  How do we teach our kids to embrace their quirks and focus on the options they have today that did not exist for their parents.

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Full Transcript:

Brent: You know, seeing these kids that have grown up really straddling a real world and a virtual world—that their parents, or their adults, or their teachers, for the most part, are completely oblivious to... It's a weird world for teenagers to grow up in. But increasingly so. I think it's going to be more so for the older people that don't understand both worlds.

Kids have more of a knowledge of the virtual world and less of the real world, and the adults are the other way around. And it's creating a disconnect between each of them.

Matt: I think in many cases I wish that I had had the subcultures that kids can have today. Because when we were in high school, it was basically like jocks, drama people, and maybe five cliques. But there's probably a hundred cliques within Minecraft. I mean, do you do full reenactments of Disney movies in Minecraft? Or do you build weapons? Or do you build a computer?

There's just so many different subcultures. I think a lot of it is protective. But it's hard to be in the real world when your most meaningful experiences are happening online. And I think that's pretty tough.

And for a flip side, there are so many lonely adults who make absolutely no use of the technology available to them to connect beyond the physical environment they find themselves in.

So are we inventing a business where kids help older people get into games, while the older people teach the kids about how to live in the real world?

Brent: Oh Matt, not everything needs to be a business.

Brent: [Laughs]

Matt: But without incentivizing that, it's never going to happen. When we were kids, we would go to the extended care where old people would go, and we would hang out as a field trip. And I used to go play cards with people who were older than me. And that is gone. Maybe partly because this divide is happening.

Brent: Things have changed so much. It's harder to relate. And kids just don't have the opportunity to be bored. And we're entertaining ourselves to death. They're being bored when they have ten things to do. So you see the iteration of videos—now there's a video embedded in a video, or you put a TV on in the background while watching two videos on your phone—and you're bored.

Matt: Yeah. I do think that preys on the most vulnerable 5 to 10%. We were talking about video essays—I think there are lots of people who enjoy long-form things. They're in it sincerely and they're not looking to be entertained every second. But I still think they're still in another world. It's disconnected in many ways.

I mean, subcultures are an important part of being a teenager. And so from that perspective, I think it's good to have options.

Brent: What are your thoughts on how that relates to ADHD? Or are we creating more of it because we just have to be entertained all the time?

Matt: So I think there's more and more adults who are—people who have a feeling, and they're like, "Oh, I don't feel good. My attention's all over the place. I must have ADD." But I am suspicious a lot of the time that they're sidestepping some issues.

Like, a question I ask parents all the time is: "Okay, your kid has an executive function problem, but why is his executive not functioning?" And it's not always just because that part's broken. For example, it might be "I hate what I'm being asked to do in school." And so my executive function flies all over the place. If you don't help that kid get better in school, you'll have to medicate them for the rest of their life.

So my gut feeling is—maybe paradoxical—which is that this is giving space for ADHD people to work in their own frame. And same with autism. Like, I don't know if you've ever heard of these games called Satisfactory or Factorio? Probably not.

Brent: No.

Matt: But do you remember playing Sim City when we were a kid?

Brent: Yeah.

Matt: So that's where you build these virtual worlds. They have these factory games now where you essentially create these extremely complex factories where you're going all the way from taking minerals out of the ground to building spaceships. And there's many coding people who are like, "This is where you should start with coding, especially if you're autistic." Because this game is very meaningful and it's going to teach you all these rules about how to structure. Like, when I look at my kid playing it, it's like he's designing a computer chip.

There's other ones where people do a complete retelling of Monsters Inc.—the movie—in Minecraft. Every scene, every camera angle, they recreate it. And they act it and they voice act it and then make the movie in Minecraft. So that's an opportunity for people who love drama, who are in an environment with nobody else who likes drama. And a lot of the older people don't have those options.

So a lot of these kids are not going to think of themselves as necessarily ADHD, or even spectral.

Brent: So do you view that as a nature or nurture issue, or both?

Matt: I mean, the answer is of course both. I maybe know this research, that the genetic predisposition to high cholesterol and all of these things—there's some very famous rat studies where they show that the nurturing behavior of the rat turns off and on the epigenes which do or don't create heart disease. And it's like, "Does the mother rat lick the baby rats?"

So obviously they're connected. You can't separate the two.

But it doesn't mean you can't think about the relative influence of both. And that is happening probably genetically, in the sense that people with ADD are now more likely to procreate with someone who has ADD. And I think this is called assortative mating, where then the extremeness of ADD gets more and more extreme.

Brent: I think on my first book, one of the first sentences was "Everyone's their own brand of crazy."

Matt: [Laughs]

Brent: So I agree with you that we now have a more generally accepting world where there's an outlet for everyone. But it's also... are we also facilitating it or enabling aspects of it that allow it to get a bit deconstructive? Even as it relates to procrastinating. Sometimes you're asked in this world to do things that you don't like. And part of life is doing things that are hard and doing things that—you can't just always do things you want to do.

That would be awesome if you could, but that doesn't build character.

Matt: That's true, but that's a really interesting point. Because what you have to do that you don't want to do really has to be your choice. Or it becomes super disempowering.

It's like: "Why are you going to school?" And interestingly, when I tell them, "Maybe you shouldn't be going to school," that actually creates the space for them to go like, "No, I want that. I choose that." And then they're more willing to do the hard things of school because they actually chose it.

And is there a downside where people don't have to do things they should do? Uh, yeah. Like somebody who's not seeing the sun or moving their body because they're addicted to a video game. But on the flip side, so many of our parents—or our generation—were put in environments that they don't really want to be in. They didn't really consent. And somebody told them, "Well, in life you have to do things you don't want to do."

So it really brings forward this issue of consent to do what you don't want to do.

Brent: Yeah, that's where I think there's just a line that needs to be drawn at some point of helping people understand that you do have to learn how to jump through some hoops sometimes. That the hoops themselves are not necessarily teaching you something, but how to appease others' rules.

In another context, you have the opportunity to do these things that you do like to do, but creating a balance of them... so that's how we all function together. If a person just thinks that everything has to be adapted to me, adapted to me, adapted to me—they become unhireable in a job.

Matt: Many of the parents of the kids you're talking about, I'm saying: "This child should probably not be employed. They need to be an employer, or they need to be a contractor."

I think that jumping through hoops and doing things you don't want to do are not exactly the same. And I do think there's this subgroup of people who are like, "I am not going to be jumping through hoops." That doesn't mean I won't pay a great cost to do something I love. But I definitely have students who, if they cannot see the reason for doing something, they're not going to do it.

We were talking about this a bit last week. How do you teach someone like that manners? You have to motivate it from the agreement to be polite, not the societal hoop that you must be polite. And for example, it's often talking through with a person like: "Okay, well if you're rude, what is the message you're sending? What is that person going to think?" "Oh wait, I don't want that." "Yeah, okay, I'll be more polite."

I think what used to happen is it's like: "If you don't jump through the hoop, you're hooped. So therefore, be normal."

Like, there's a line from "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" which is actually a quote of Richard Linklater, which is: "Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy."

Brent: Mm.

Matt: And I think there is some deep truth to that where people are saying, "I don't agree to do this. You're telling me I have to, but I don't want to." But I think it is feasible to say to someone, "This is going to suck. Is it going to be worth it?"

Brent: I think it's also just trying to express to people that if you do live in a society amongst other people, you have to realize that if you create very strict rules for yourself, it's going to impact how other people react to you.

There is this imperfect global system—whether it's a school or a hospital or just government—that it's not going to be able to help most people that well. So you have to try to figure out how to understand yourself, look after yourself, but also concede some of those things sometimes and not take it personally in order to get along with others.

Matt: I think that's true. But I think what people have an opportunity to decide is not to play with those people. Because I do think that kids today have social lives. They have communities, they have norms. They're just very divorced from what we experienced.

So I think that the problem of people who are pretty low resilience and don't want to do anything that feels at all off in any way—and that person, yes, they need intervention. I do those kinds of interventions. They're really hard. They take a long time. And you can definitely not say to them, "Sometimes you just have to do things that suck." You have to motivate them from first principles to want to exist in life.

But a much larger group is like: "I don't like this." And when you include them in the process of "What are you choosing to do?" then they're willing to try things that are hard.

And that, I feel, was not really offered to us. It was like: "There's this mainstream—go to college." Maybe there's a trades mainstream, but not really talked about. And I think if people get that vibe now—"I'm not who you care about"—they're like, "Well I will never jump through a hoop for you."

Brent: I think in the past of our generation and before, there was a clear path. And now there's this paradox of choice of "There's no target." And like next month everything's different again. How do you create motivation when everything's changing constantly?

Matt: I think it's options and opportunities. I think the next frontier in this is... Okay, let me put some of my cards on the table. Employment—being employed for someone—can be a very high-risk situation, especially if your brain works differently. Because all your eggs are in the employer's basket and if they decide you're not relevant, suddenly you're back to square one.

So I think a really missing piece of cultural technology is: "If you're not going to be employed, how do you live a safe and secure life financially?" If you're going to be a contractor, if you're going to run a business. I think that's the frontier. I work with individuals on that topic, but I don't have a general solution to it.

Brent: Yeah. Getting a job is not your only way to make money. That has been historically the, like, "Well you gotta go to school and get a job." But the role of trying to become an influencer or that... like, there's all sorts of toxicity wrapped around that.

Matt: No, no. And to be clear that's not what I mean. I mean if you're going to be a plumber, is your first 20 years going to be working for Ralph's Plumbing Emporium? Or are you going to find a way to do it where you're not dependent on Ralph giving you business?

And it's easy if you have the personality type of an entrepreneur. But many of my clients who need this kind of thing are introverted people who want security. The magical alliance between autistic and ADHD people is definitely part of the solutions here. Because a lot of the people who need to not be employed are not meant to be entrepreneurs. And I think that's a key problem.

If you're a jewelry maker—I'm thinking of one of my students who's a jeweler—how is she going to make a life and an income without being some ambitious business person? And I think that we do need... I don't know what it is. It's related to universal basic income, better education. But we need a way for people to be "weird" that's more culturally acceptable.

Brent: Well I think there's a difference between being culturally acceptable and making money doing that.

Matt: Yeah. I guess that's what I actually meant. Because in our culture, the ability to make money is one of the key ways you're valid. Unfortunately, perhaps.

Brent: That's finding the level of resilience and teaching acceptance, but also the reality that life's not fair. And that you have to figure out a means of how you do fit into this world and look after yourself, and maybe look after others. Which is genuinely harder for some people than others.

Matt: I think a key thought then is to think about the fact that there isn't a world, but there are many worlds. That's why one of the number one suggestions from many special educators is for kids who are neurodiverse to read biographies. Because biographies let you know that there are other ways to do it than "the world you were shown is the world." And I wish I had understood that the world we were getting sold when we were kids... there are other options.

Because my core theory here is that if people have options and they're not being coerced into something, they're more willing to do shitty things.

And so then, what are these other worlds? It kind of brings me to the topic I wanted to talk about today a little bit, so maybe I'll just go there. In the world of the neurodiverse—and I don't mean to speak for such a broad world—there's a concept of the "Normie." Do you know that idea?

Brent: Uh, I have a sense of what you're saying, but you can give me your definition.

Matt: It's like there's a lot of disdain for Normies as a standard. In many ways it's a way of having pride in the way in which you're different, which is to say "I'm not a Normie." And so I spend a lot of time with my students telling them how enjoyable Normies are and how much fun there is in Normie World. But I have this thought that nobody would think of themselves really as a Normie, very often.

So is it people that are Normies, or is it cultures that are Normie? And I'm going to define Normie as the pull to be average, or the pull to fit the rules. And I'm going to share my theory with you that Normie is entirely a relative term. If you go to a Dungeons and Dragons tournament, they would say "This is a tournament for non-Normies." But I would say there, being into Dungeons and Dragons makes you a Normie. And you're going to enforce all the rules around being good at Dungeons and Dragons hangouts. And somebody who comes in from another world who doesn't know any of that, they're going to perceive themselves as neurodiverse in that environment.

That it's fully a relative idea.

Brent: To be considered normal, you have to compare yourself to something. If you're used to one culture and you plunk yourself into a different culture, you stand out. And part of that can be you can visually stand out, you can behaviorally stand out... and so you're just not normal.

And I think everybody... if you do any type of front-facing job where you deal with the public or you just deal with people all day, you realize how quirky everybody is. And it's just whether that's accepted or not. And whether you can hide it.

And whether some people just feel like they have to be rule followers and some people have to just feel like explicitly not rule followers. "You tell me to do something, I'll do the opposite."

Matt: Even neurodiverse is in itself... it implies it's a spectrum kind of thing. So it's not black and white.

Brent: And I think there's this desire to demonize a particular person for being in charge of that. And that is where it gets really wrong. Like if you go to a private school, everything is designed to get you into college. And starting in Grade 9, you have a college consultant in your school and everything is university-based. Those influences normalize you to going to university. Even though no individual ever says "You have to go to university." And if you went and asked your counselor, "Are there other paths than university?" they'd say, "Oh yeah, there are."

But the environment is the normalizing force.

Brent: Gabor Maté's latest book is The Myth of Normal. And talks about there is no normal.

As the world has pushed towards being more accepting of the non-Normies, that's rubbed some people the wrong way. And now there's a pushback going the other way, I think. Everything in the world creates an overcorrection and then a bit of a swing back the other way. And you hope in the end the fallout comes to where it helps the most people.

But the people that live on either side of a left or a right or away from any deemed middle...

Matt: Follow all rules / Never follow any rules.

Brent: Yeah. They end up having the most challenges or the most swings. They lose their jobs or get fired...

Matt: And in many ways those people are going to have, realistically, a harder time even in a world that acknowledges neurodiversity or any form of not being normal. Because if your behavior is extreme in any form, it's likely to break any culture. You know, the most extreme D&D player... I've read stories on Reddit, it's like, "Oh how do we get rid of this guy? He's way too annoying."

So maybe that 1-2% is going to have a pretty tough time. But maybe the option for the other 95% is to make more things "normal." Rather than having them all be abnormal. Making it normal to start your own business. Normal to start college at 25. And normal in the sense that you can think of other people who do it, we have cultural stories about why you do it.

And I think that maybe some of what has to happen is that a broader sense of what's acceptable and normal includes more people, means that people at the edges... maybe they're going to struggle more, but that's where we can support people. By making more of the weird people "normal." I don't know, I'm not really explaining it right.

Brent: This comes down to acceptance. I think creating more options is good, but you can't create infinitely more options. They have to function with some level of structural rules or it's just impossible...

Matt: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it has to be unstructured. In fact I think unstructured appeals only to a very subtype of neurodiversity. Like your average autistic person is not stoked on an unstructured environment at all.

So yeah... no, I'm just saying more variables to vary. Like the expected time of starting various educational programs. I think it should be normal to start school when you're 9, if you want. It should also be normal to start when you're 5 and normal to start when you're 3. And I think that also, when do you go to college? It should be super normal to go back in your 30s or 40s. And I think if you decide not to be employed, that should be really normal and we should have many cultural examples and tools of ways to help people do that.

But I'm not saying that we should be giving away things to people who are not normal so that they feel good. That's not my point. It's not about subsidizing. But just about taking a few variables and finding a wider berth of what's acceptable.

Brent: It's just moving away from the concept of normal.

Matt: But maybe I'm suggesting the opposite. That we, like, bring normal back, but we deny the idea that normal is one thing.

Brent: It's normal to be weird.

Matt: One thing I found useful in life is just knowing like: "People do this. People do X. People do Y. There are people who think this is normal." I've personally found that really helpful.

Brent: Yeah. I regularly come across people that come in to see me in all sorts of discomfort or pain and think they're the only person that could ever have experienced this. And I'm like, "Actually this is like the most common thing that people come in with. You're in really good company." Not trying to diagnose them... but make them feel that, okay, this person has seen this before, I'm not totally abnormal.

Because that's where our anxious brains go a lot of the time. Particularly if you have come across something that's new to you, that's uncomfortable. You think you're the only person that's ever experienced it.

Matt: Oh man. That's hitting me with existentialism and fear of death. So in my experience, like 70% of my students—especially if I meet them younger—have an active, large fear of death. And it's because they're existential people. Like they think big. And so they're like 9, being like, "What am I doing here?"

And then they feel super alone and isolated because the people around them are probably not the same. And nobody has empathy for that. Or they have empathy but they have fear about it.

And I find when I tell people: "Oh yeah, fear of death. That's the thing every human has been wrestling with since the beginning of humanity. Here's an example. Here's what Nietzsche said. Here's what Jesus said."

It's relieving just to know that you're not the only person terrified of death. And actually I tell them, like, it's characteristic of smart people who think a lot. And it's relieving. And it takes something that feels... you feel like you're crazy for thinking about this secret of death. And then you think like, "No no no, this is an elite signal."

And it kind of works. I've seen it kind of work.

Brent: The busier a person's brain is, the more thoughts they have, the more likely they're going to get to something like that and then create a cycle of anxiety or worry. It's part of the inherent nature of ADD-ish kind of things. And just people in general. Not even if you have to label it. Just we're overly cerebral.

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Season 1 of the podcast has 8 episodes, click here to view the podcast page with all of the available episodes.

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